Lead to Succeed: An interview with Stan Toler

Stan Toler has written and spoken widely on the topic of leadership. A former associate of John Maxwell, he continues to work with churches and church leaders in strengthening leadership. Today, Stan is Senior Pastor of Trinity Church of the Nazarene in Oklahoma City, OK. LeaderLinks editor Michael Duduit interviewed Stan shortly after the release of his book Lead to Succeed, published by Beacon Hill Press.

LeaderLinks: How did you get involved in this area of studying leadership?

Toler: Well, it's a no-brainer — I worked on staff with John Maxwell! In 1970-1973, I was his first staff member at Langster, Ohio. My title was Associate Pastor but I was pastor of youth, of senior adults, pastor of visitation. I was his only staff member. I was the director of the choir and worship leader. I also had responsibility for gas in his 1972 Ford Pinto and taking his clothes to clean. So I learned a lot about leadership from John. I should back up and say Maxwell paid me $65 a week to do all the things that I was doing!

John really influenced me with more thoughts about leadership that I've never forgotten. He taught me that when you're working with people. always remember their name, recognize their potential, request their help, and reward their achievement. Well, those four things really struck a chord in my life as a young learner.

I went to college with him. I was a freshman when he was a senior. But he began to talk about leadership as influence. In fact the book that turned us both on was Spiritual Leadership by J. Oswald Sanders. In fact it was an old paperback at that time. We gave copies to ever church leader. I remember it like it was yesterday. Thus began a real journey. So over the years I whetted my appetite. We both came away with that crystal clear definition of leadership and we worked together fleshing out leadership principles.

I've learned that there are several challenges when it comes to leadership. I think the first challenge is courage. You have to have the courage to lead. I think the second challenge is trust. People have to have a complete confidence that you're authentic, that you are a person of integrity. Integrity is a prime motivator in the marketplace and in the pulpit, so trust is very clear cut. Third in leadership is mentoring. It's taking what you know and passing it on. I've always worked from the view that you should never do ministry alone. Over the years I have tried to bring staff members and keep people around me in leadership roles and as I've mentored them — I've given them books, materials, and developed myself as a leader and therefore I try to pass that on. And I think that the fifth challenge is passion. People need to know that you are passionate.

When I worked with Maxwell, still a college student, I graduated from college and he sponsored me to started a church in Tampa, Florida. That was hirty years ago this May. This past May we went by the old location on our way over from Venice and just reflected on that start. I don't know why John changed it but he paid me $52 a week down there and it was $65 when I was on staff. Anyhow, here I am 30 years later in fulltime ministry and I'm more passionate about ministry today than ever while so many burn out and get tired and so forth. I do think it's because I caught hold of those challenges — especially in Joshua's story and the spies, having the courage and the willingness to step forward.

LeaderLinks: That moves us into talking about your book Lead to Succeed (Beacon Hill Press), and your use of biblical principles top teach about leadership. Tell me what drew you to that particular topic.

Toler: My co-author Jerry Brecheisen and I talked about this a great deal. Jerry is the editor of the Western Advocate and started a church in Jackson, Michigan. We were talking one day about doing a book together. We both echoed a concern that has developed in the local church that people are more and more putting that CEO test to pastors. I reject that. Not every one will agree with me I know. Now I am an organizer. I've created products like the Instant Church Office, 26 Ways to Improve the Image of Your Church; I've co-authored Five Start Church with Al Nelson which is a best seller, and Five Secrets of Becoming a Leader.

I told Jerry my concern is that everyone is testing pastors today by a secular test. I want to be tested by biblical principles. If I am not doing my job then get the Bible out and deal with me. So we began to think about what were the qualities of New Testament leaders. We began to flesh those out.

For example, one that we had in mind was humility. You're not going to hear that in a CEO role because they are going to say keep climbing, keep climbing, keep climbing. But at some point you have to humble yourself before the Lord, and people have to know that you are humble in terms of any achievements or accomplishments that you've had in life.

I was born in the hills of West Virginia. My dad was a coal miner. We moved to Ohio in search of a better life when I was eleven years old. Dad was killed tragically in an accident. I wrote about it in the book, God's Never Failed Me But He Sure Scared Me To Death A Few Times. My journey has been one of humble beginnings. I lost sight of that because we ate government commodities, we had three rooms and a path. I was doing a Focus interview not long ago and the guy changed it to 'bath' — I said, "No, path." We were poor. In fact, one Christmas I got a present — I opened it up and it was from my mom. It was just a battery and it said, "Toy not included." That's how poor we were! My pastor was a bi-vocational pastor, worked in the coal mines with my dad. With that humble start I've never lost sight of those poor beginnings and how God has blessed me over the years. Every time I preach on Sunday I fall down on my knees beside my desk before my prayer partners come in and I go, "Oh God, I am not up to this one. I just don't have what it takes."

Another point that New Testament leaders have to be sincere. When it says in Romans 12 that love must be sincere, that needs to show up in our lives, because if people think you are sincere then I believe they will follow you.

Another word is proximity. I was told early in ministry to be careful, keep people at arms length, don't get too close. I finally broke all those rules and I am the happiest person in the whole wide world. In fact my new book that comes out with Random House/Waterbrook in the fall is called The Secret Blend, and it is a parable about coffee and relationships. There is a coupon given by the owner of the coffee store in Seattle to this man, Joe Conrad, who comes into the store on a rainy Seattle day. The question on the backside of that coupon for the free cup of coffee is 'Are you as rich as you want to be?' and then I discuss seven relationship secrets. You see, I am the richest person in the world because I have allowed people to come into my life. I break all the rules.

Every day at my office Monday through Thursday — because I am out Friday and Saturday for travel and speaking — every day until noon my office door is open. I have done that in the 2,000 member church in Nashville, in a 1000-member church in southern Ohio where I pastored for 10 years. Yes, sometimes people violate the schedule but I want people to know that I can be accessible and in touch with me. The fact is through my seminars I always put my name and address up and everything else up and I always say call me. I will respond to emails. I get a hundred a day. But what is interesting is that over a half-million people have gone through my Injoy seminars and no one really has ever violated it. I think that they appreciate the fact that I am available and they don't take advantage of me.

I've often said that many people preach better sermons but not many can shake more hands. My staff enters the church on Sunday by shaking hands. We have different aisles assigned every week and we all shake hands, including the preacher. What I've found out if you can touch people you'll have a whole lot better chance of ministering to them and they'll listen to your sermons.

LeaderLinks: As you've worked with these New Testament principles and ideas about leadership, what have you struggled with the most in your own ministry?

Toler: I think the whole issue of courage. I'm not a brave person. I'm a tender heart. I'm always worried about, "will this hurt someone or will this offend someone?" Courageous leadership is hard for me. I'm the last person that says don't let the door hit you in the behind — I want to know why they left. My staff members will tell you if someone is leaving I must know was there something I need to do. I will crawl on glass to fix it. That becomes a challenge at times for me in ministry, to have courage and yet at the same time relate. There are some days I know I need to remind people that not only is there a loving God and a Heaven to gain but there is also a Hell to shun.

To have the courage to deal with a tough topic, a tough truth and get out with it and say it is my biggest struggle. All I can say is that when I know I have done it right, I do not going to apologize for this message but before I close my Bible I say, "Can I tell you with all my heart I love you? You are the most wonderful people in the world but I needed to tell you this today. This is a truth that you can't ignore."

LeaderLinks: What would you say is the most important lesson you have learned as a leader?

Toler: I learned it from my dad. My dad taught me seven things and I review those seven things every Monday morning. One of the things that dad said is, "Stan, if you are going to sing get up on the balls of your feet. You'll never sing flat if you get up on the tip of your toes." He was a great singer. I've taken a lot of licks over the years. I could give you a lot of stories. I've had those Monday morning drive-bys when I wanted to go by the church with my resignation all written out and a brown paper bag with a rock and just throw it through the stained glass window and just keep on driving! What keeps me sane is realizing you have to be up on your toes.

That is the way it is with life. If I'm going make it I can't get back on my heels. Everyday I get up on the tip of my toes and get going. That is a Monday morning reminder for me as a leader that if you're going to be helpful to people you have to be optimistic. I love the story about the two cowboys that are out on the range and the sun's going down. As they observed the buffalo grazing peacefully, one cowboy says to the other cowboy, "You know, I think the buffalo is the ugliest creature under God's Heaven." He turns and rides off into the sunset. One buffalo looks at the other buffalo and says, "I think I just heard discouraging words." I love that story because when you pastor you can get some discouraging words. It doesn't matter what you preach.

When I look around most of the people who started in ministry with me, they're gone, they can't be found, they've quit. It breaks my heart. So I've got to get up on the balls of my feet — I can't rock back. If I do, Satan can use that and discourage me as well as others.